Thanks. I’m enjoying this more than on any boards. I may only come here now for good discussion. Thanks to Susan for pointing me here.

Totally. My guess would be Linderman thought Arthur had lost his belief in either The Company’s methods or The Company’s ideology. I’m hoping the show clarifies what sets Pinehearst apart from The Company in those respects,

I think it’s even more than that, but yes right on the money. To Linderman and I’m gonna guess Angela too, he was no longer willing to save the world - he lost his way, he was unable to sacrifice for the greater good. As Kaito says to Adam “You’re going against everything this Company stands for.”

and I’m thinking there’s a touch of irony to the fact that Linderman — the guy who called Arthur “weak” — is now unwittingly having his image used to strengthen a rival to The Company. Arthur’s gotta be getting a kick out of that.

Oh, totally! As much as Linderman, I think, got a kick out of using Arthur’s son, considering how he treated Linderman in the GN, and if he is as all powerful as we think he is, the rest of Linderman’s life.

With Maury, do you think it’s a self-esteem issue?

I find it so interesting the most powerful one, as far as we know, is the lackey. I do think helping Adam kill the elders had to have some satisfaction to Maury, that he had his own gripes. The Company after all was looking for him (via Molly) so he was on the outs. I always wondered if THEY were the ones he stole the money from that Matt talks about.

Maury seems to be a con man. Now, he and Matt have the same power even thought it seems most of his life, Matt’s father wasn’t around. I am a little clouded on how ‘I’ wrote him in my story, since we don’t know as much about him, but I take clues from Matt to see who Maury is.

If Matt grew up similar to his dad and didn’t know it, it could create the same result - same power. I happen to be dyslexic and it can bring about self esteem issues, issues I saw in Matt in Season one. Even the shame of his dyslexia.

That to me, links into wanting to be liked and fit in. I always felt Matt’s power was perfect for a dyslexic. A dyslexic sometimes has trouble picking up on social cues (not all, I know I out grew most of it) or picking up on things. I know sometimes I still take directions a little too literal sometimes. You also feel at times your in a world were no one listens to you, because you live outside the box. Reading minds and getting people to do what you want, so works for that.

Also, most lackys are looking for approval, for friends. Sometimes they even compensate with obnoxious personalities, or that is a result from bad social skills. Just in general, I don’t mean dyslexics are obnoxious. lol. I feel like the only thing, on what little we know, is that he is looking for approval. Maury also comes across as very, very angry to me. Like he feels the world slighted him, that he has an ax to grind.

Sure, and I very much doubt she was the only one. My theory would be that she was part of a triumvirate with Linderman and Arthur, and those were the three who were making plans several decades down the line — probably thanks to Angela’s ability.

Yes, but I don’t think we can say that all 12 weren’t involved at first. Absolving Characters we just haven’t met (who who were played by extras in a pix, so odds are we don’t lol) isn’t fair to me.

Based on what we know about Adam being incarcerated — and, this past week, about his objection to the formula — I’d say Adam had been dismissed as a lunatic pretty soon after the ElderSupers came together. I think there’s a good reason why he isn’t in that ElderSuper group shot.

Well, to be fair he’s not in the picture because it was almost 30 years after he was in jail, yes. But by the time Adam was incarcerated they had two up and running facilities - in Oddessa AND Upstate NY (Hartsdale) it couldn’t be THAT new. And for a time Angela, Arthur and Linderman helped him, I would even venture to guess Maury was part of that group. But Angela did something at the last min. Called Kaito perhaps? I hope we find out.

Oh, me neither, but like I said, I can definitely see her being more involved with the ethically questionable decisions that Kaito and Charles and Victoria would have dismissed as insane.

That’s because — coming back to the original point — she’s ruthless enough to make those decisions without her conscience getting in the way. I agree with your point that she has a conscience and needs to cut out her heart. For all of Kaito’s talk about cutting out his heart, we’ve seen in the end that he didn’t: he handed out babies to Company agents, but when it mattered, he took a stand and he had Adam locked up. Angela didn’t let her conscience get in the way of The Company’s objectives: she forged ahead with the kind of thinking that led to plots involving the destruction of cities and the deaths of millions. I don’t see how she could help to formulate plans like that without being ruthless.

Like we don’t know when Kaito left the Company we don’t know when Angela started doing such things. And considering the way they show villains on this show… I can’t see her always being this way, even to a small degree. Therefore NOT the same women Adam knew 30 years ago. I again remind you she was pretty much last in line to head the company, I find that very telling. She is a wife of a different generation, remember that too.

I dunno: I’d say Kaito, Charles and Victoria all showed varying degrees of remorse.

I meant people still involved in the doing of the bad things.
But to come back to Angela: yes, she obviously feels remorse, but she doesn’t let it get in her way — because, as you say, she can’t. Maybe, as you seem to be saying, that’s what makes her tragic. But I think that’s also what makes her so dangerous to Adam — more so than the other ElderSupers: from what we’ve seen, she isn’t deterred by anything — not even her own conscience. I don’t think that necessarily makes her a villain, but in my view it does make her ruthless.

Yeah, the point I was trying to make here was separate to the point about her ruthlessness: this was about why she’s a formidable opponent to Adam. Her influence makes her a threat.

She was the oracle and wife of the most powerful Hero it would seem so yes. But something has to be said about the fact that people grow into becoming what they… well become. Married at a very young age in the 1960’s odds are Angela was a different person at 22 then she is now at 60 something. She never spoke her mind until Arthur died. Perhaps it’s a generational thing (mean hers not ours), but I just don’t believe Angela was the woman she is now in 1977, which would be the last time Adam knew her.

Angela stressed it was Arthur’s disappointment that led to giving Nathan abilities, to me, says even more about who Arthur was and in turn how his wife was seen at the Company Okay, I’m off on a tangent,but on Adam: After all he was able to convince her that helping him kill most of the world’s population was a good idea and we know she doesn’t believe that now. As the virus and the entire world falling into havic, slitting into 2, not really a good thing to her.

Even Linderman, 30 odd years ago, was a book worm who wouldn’t kill a child to save the world. Experience had to show Angela the way to save the world is her ‘ruthless’ behavior.

Hope I made sense today, I’m on very little sleep.

And may I ad I do think Angela has done much, much wrong doing over the last 30 years and and she’s made her own bed, her bed of secrets.

Siege, great post. “Ropemaker Sylar” made me laugh.

Thepandorarose — again, great post. Just a couple of thoughts to add:

So many people assumed that meant Arthur was the pussycat, but I’ve always said - weak means different things to different people.

Totally. My guess would be Linderman thought Arthur had lost his belief in either The Company’s methods or The Company’s ideology. I’m hoping the show clarifies what sets Pinehearst apart from The Company in those respects, and I’m thinking there’s a touch of irony to the fact that Linderman — the guy who called Arthur “weak” — is now unwittingly having his image used to strengthen a rival to The Company. Arthur’s gotta be getting a kick out of that.

Well, we don’t know what the others did, so looking pretty, but I guess your kidding.

I was very much kidding.
With Maury, do you think it’s a self-esteem issue? I find Maury kind of a mystery because it’s not really clear what he wants. The other folks have lofty goals about helping mankind or leading a new world, but Maury doesn’t seem to want anything — or to even have a self-serving motive. He seems to do what he’s told because that’s all he knows how to do, even with a power that could wreak a lot more havoc than Adam’s or Linderman’s.

I really don’t think we have any proof (and I know it’s spec)to say Angela was the only one involved in that kind of thing.

Sure, and I very much doubt she was the only one. My theory would be that she was part of a triumvirate with Linderman and Arthur, and those were the three who were making plans several decades down the line — probably thanks to Angela’s ability. Based on what we know about Adam being incarcerated — and, this past week, about his objection to the formula — I’d say Adam had been dismissed as a lunatic pretty soon after the ElderSupers came together. I think there’s a good reason why he isn’t in that ElderSuper group shot.

I don’t think she gets all the blame.

Oh, me neither, but like I said, I can definitely see her being more involved with the ethically questionable decisions that Kaito and Charles and Victoria would have dismissed as insane. That’s because — coming back to the original point — she’s ruthless enough to make those decisions without her conscience getting in the way. I agree with your point that she has a conscience and needs to cut out her heart. For all of Kaito’s talk about cutting out his heart, we’ve seen in the end that he didn’t: he handed out babies to Company agents, but when it mattered, he took a stand and he had Adam locked up. Angela didn’t let her conscience get in the way of The Company’s objectives: she forged ahead with the kind of thinking that led to plots involving the destruction of cities and the deaths of millions. I don’t see how she could help to formulate plans like that without being ruthless.

She seems to be the only one who shows any remorse to me.

I dunno: I’d say Kaito, Charles and Victoria all showed varying degrees of remorse. The reason we haven’t seen the rest of the bunch (the ones who were there to look pretty) is probably because they were appalled with their company — and with themselves — and ran a mile when the genocidal plans started coming together.

But to come back to Angela: yes, she obviously feels remorse, but she doesn’t let it get in her way — because, as you say, she can’t. Maybe, as you seem to be saying, that’s what makes her tragic. But I think that’s also what makes her so dangerous to Adam — more so than the other ElderSupers: from what we’ve seen, she isn’t deterred by anything — not even her own conscience. I don’t think that necessarily makes her a villain, but in my view it does make her ruthless.

I don’t remember any other elders involved in bad things who second guessed what was right. I am open to examples.

I can’t think of any either, although I’d say the evidence is in the fact that The Company — as it stood in the late seventies — disintegrated. That’s most likely because the majority of the members realized they were involved in something certifiable.

Re: Angela’s ability to rationalize her decisions: That’s really more of a talent, then ruthlessness.

Yeah, the point I was trying to make here was separate to the point about her ruthlessness: this was about why she’s a formidable opponent to Adam. Her influence makes her a threat.

Harlin, thanks. AWOL = absent without leave.

btw, loved your link to the paper shredder! lol! I laughed really hard at it. :p

Anyways, as always, hilarious and effective review! Thanks otto.

P.S. I have a question: what’s AWOL? “Micah, Monica and West are AWOL.” I assumed that it means written off without explanation… is it?

+ p.s. What became of Molly? Can anyone tell me? Is that little girl alone or is she still living with the dangerous momo and not killed…yet? Is no one looking for Matt, even though he’s been missing for days?

++p.s. I want kaitlin back! I guess the writers had to abandon her because of the writer’s srike and loss of episodes, but still… poor kaitlin- her brother’s fried and now she’s stuck in a horrid future!

+++p.s. I want Micah back as well! wow, am I wishing too much? +_+

I’ll be interested to see whether there’s any reference to a scene in “Landslide” when Linderman told Nathan that his father was “weak” and “gave up.” I think that’ll tie in very closely with your point about Angela being a pussycat by comparison.

Absolutely. So many people assumed that meant Arthur was the pussycat, but I’ve always said - weak means different things to different people. I can’t wait.

I’m totally speculating here, but between the show and the GNs, I always got the impression that Linderman and the Petrellis were kind of the visionaries behind The Company.

Yes, I agree, but now with the introduction of Adam it seems he was a god to them.

… Kaito and Bob were the coordinators and general operational heads, Maury was the tool, and the rest of them were there to look pretty.

Well, we don’t know what the others did, so looking pretty, but I guess your kidding. I agree with Maury. I think he has low self esteem like Matt did in season one, he seems to follow people when he’s the most powerful, of course he was scared of Arthur. Maybe he was never scared of Adam and it was Arthur he was fearful. I just find that interesting for he is the most powerful, it would seem.

It seems like Angela was one of the more involved members when it came to the really huge decisions about altering DNA and killing off millions for the greater good; and to make decisions like that, I think Angela would need to be ruthless.

I really don’t think we have any proof (and I know it’s spec)to say Angela was the only one involved in that kind of thing. Based on what we know about Arthur it would see a couple married in 1965 - Angela was seen by him as the wife, sure she was involved, but not like the men. I mean she only took over after everyone was dead or in jail. Arthur was the one who taught Linderman about scarfing one for the sake of millions. Kaito had the motto of cutting out one’s own heart. I don’t think she gets all the blame. I think when it comes to Angela your a little clouded.
So, to come back to the point about the way Adam sees her, I’d still say Adam might be terrified of Angela, and for that exact reason. She realizes that her decisions and motives are questionable (”We mortgaged our souls,” “We did something terrible,” etc.), but Angela has conviction and she’ll follow through on a plan without letting her conscience get in the way.

I think she feels the pain and the gulit she just pushes on, for she has to - I think in her world it’s considered selfish. She cuts out her own heart, but the tragedy is she can’t. She seems to be the only one who shows any remorse to me.

which makes her more of a threat to Adam than the ElderSupers who would dither over whether they were doing the right thing.

I again remind you no one is born evil. Sylar use to be a mild mannered watch repairman. Linderman was a book worm who couldn’t kill a child. I don’t remember any other elders involved in bad things who second guessed what was right. I am open to examples. I think the Angela we know now came from experience over time and trail and error.

She’s also very good at rationalizing her decisions and making them sound plausible — which Linderman and Adam aren’t. As we’ve seen (in “.07%” and “Powerless”), they come across sounding deranged rather than rational.

That’s really more of a talent, then ruthlessness.

I guess Adam managed to brainwash them to begin with (as Angela says in “Powerless”), but that might have more to do with the rest of the ElderSupers desperately wanting to believe him than with Adam’s persuasive skills.

Oh, absolutely! And Adam had seen their kind before, he knew what to say. He sized up Peter in two mins and it sounds like just how elders must have been. Lost people looking for a purpose, looking for someone like them, wanting to save the world - after all it was the 70’s - and he was there to be their god.

I think Adam feels threatened by Angela’s influence because it makes her as dangerous as he is: she can manipulate people as effortlessly as he can.

She learned from the best and out did the teacher. I again have to go with people change over 30 years of time, usually getting worse. He has no idea the women she is today. Even Peter remarks that she didn’t speak her mind to him until AFTER Arthur “died”. I find that telling.

Like you say, though, that might not always have been the case. I’ll be interested to see where the show goes with this part of the story.

Aren’t we all! Nice debating. Always highly intelligent.

Re: Names

‘Claire’ comes from French and Latin origins and means ‘bright’, ‘clear’ or ‘famous’. ‘Bennet’ is derivative of ‘Bennett’, meaning ‘blessed’.

Both ‘Peter’ and ‘Petrelli’ come from petra, Latin for rock. Ironic, since the only thing that DOESN’T change about Peter is a consistent talent for getting himself into the worst POSSIBLE situation ever; even his abilities fluctuate with his moods xD His brother Nathan’s name is of Hebrew origin and means ‘gift from God’ [read: godsend].

‘Angela’, of course, is derived from the root of ‘angel’ or ‘angelic’; her son Gabriel shares his name with an angel commonly hailed as God’s messenger. Gabriel’s last name, Gray, strongly implies ambiguity. (On a slightly random note, the word ‘Sylar’ is a German surname meaning ‘ropemaker’. Go figure).

‘Arthur’ is a word of Celto-Latin origin meaning ‘bear-like’ or ‘bear-man’. It could also be related to ‘Artorius’ (’plowman’ or ‘farmer’).

Linderman, in addition to the German connection, shares a name with the biblical character Daniel, who was a prophet; in keeping with this, Daniel HealingMan is obssessed with the future, buying as many paintings as he can from any clairvoyant artist he can find.

Mohinder’s name is likely a twisting of the Indian word Mahendra, a combination of the words “maha” (great) and “Indra”, a Hindu god. His last name is derivative of the Indian word “Suresha”, which means ‘ruler of the gods’. I have no idea how this fits in with anything, since it seems that Arthur Petrelli is aiming to rule the gods, whilst Mohinder is shooting for becoming the ruler of all cockroaches/spiders/lizards xD

Adam is a reference to the ‘father of mankind’; in this instance, the father of the Company. His name is also associated with the Hebrew word ‘adamah’, meaning ‘earth’ or ‘dirt’.

Bob [Bishop]’s name means ‘bright’ or ‘famous’ and is of Germanic roots.

‘Kaito’ is Japanese for ‘Phantom Thief’ and is comparable to the ‘gentleman thief’ [read: Japanese Robin Hood, but in a tie]. I guess we know now how Nakamura got so rich
Matthew [Parkman] is of Hebrew origin and, like Nathan, means ‘gift from God’ [read: godsend]

Niki, derived from Nicole, is of Greek origin and means ‘victorious people’, which I suppose we can chalk up to ironic sarcasm. The name of her son, Micah, means ‘unique’ or ‘one who is like God’; it can also mean ‘who is like God?’ Her sister Jessica’s name means ‘foresighted’, either implying ‘able to foresee’ or ‘one who was foreseen’. The name of her sister Tracy likely is derived from Theresa or something similar, and means ‘one who reaps’ or ‘harvester’. Barbara is also of Greek origin and can mean ‘foreigner’ or ‘barbarian’. Doctor Zimmerman’s name is German for ‘carpenter’.

Finally, we can probably assume that Maya means ‘one whose storyline has been mostly boring but may perhaps stumble upon something interesting in the future’, but that’s only my personal conjecture xD

Note: some of the above information was copied from HeroesWiki and/or Wikipedia.